21 February 2006

Liberals vs conservatives

As a relatively new blogger, who has been reading and really getting into the Arab blogs-love the Egyptian ones-I have come to find a few quite annoying. I know this will be controversial, but whatever. Before I get into this, I guess I should place myself, I am quite leftist, well really leftist, so secular, and as a woman in the Arab world, not a big fan of the conservative movements in this region and their policies on women. Eventhough if you look at the Jordanian parliament and some of the laws (nationality, Ahwal Almadaneyeh, etc.) that have been suggested and how they were voted down not only by the conservatives, but also by the women, and the liberal forces within our parliament, one should be careful of to many generalizations.
Bas back to the point, the Arab blogs seems to range from quite liberal to really conservative, and that is great, the whole point is for all points of view to be heard and discussed. But I have been getting annoyed with the fact that some of the liberal ones-for they are the ones I seem to always end up on-are so anti the Islamist movements in the Arab world. I mean there seems to be an attack on movements such as Hamas and Hizbullah, and the Muslim Brotherhood, this is good if the arguments where well thought out and had backing. But some of them are things like look at these pictures they are brainwashing kids...blah blah.
I also find this idea that we secular people have that if an Islamist government is formed, that they will instantly ruin the country. I mean look at what is happening in Palestine...Hamas was voted in-for whatever reason-democratically, and instantly people have decided that they are going to ruin Palestine. This way of think is exactly what happened in Algeria and look at what happened in that country. Instead of allowing the government to be formed and give them and the Algerians see if they were correct to vote them in, instantly the international community interfered and civil war broke out!
There is a real fear and threat that Hamas and Fateh will end up forgetting their real enemy and start fighting each other. Instead of this election that started quite well, ending with a new government-that Hamas wants to be an alliance of the different Palestinian parties-we have different factions saying that they wont work with Hamas. How completely illogical is that and just plain stupid? Why not allow the government to be formed, let Hamas start dealing with the Israelis-because they will have to-and who knows, we might see this party that everyone is so worried about prove everyone wrong. There is the possibility that the expectations of the 'liberals' in the Arab world will come true, but isn't that what democracy is all about? You vote for someone, and when their time is up you decide if you want them back or not.
All over the world where people are allowed to vote, sometimes they get leaderships that they are not completely happy with, or where the international community is not very pleased with, bas they are left alone. Why are the Islamist movements not given the same respect? The argument that they do not give that respect. I think is rubbish and it can not be justified currently, for we have not had an experience with an Islamist government. Some will say look at what happened in Iran, but the method that they came into power was not elections, but out right revolution. Completely different then people going out to vote, where there is a campaign where people give you a platform of their agenda and you decide if they represent you or not.
Back to the bloggers, I just think that extremes-on both sides-are always a bit much, but what I find what is worse is when liberals who are all about opening up and allowing people to be free and think what they want and be how they want, start to lecture the conservatives about changing and not allowing there to be these two sides in our political arena. Isn't that what the Liberals are so worried about, that if the Islamists get into power they won't have the space to speak and be in opposition? Yet they seem to be doing the same, seems a bit like a double standard.

14 comments:

  1. Do you enjoy writing?
    i donno why i ask now, but when i viewed your profile, i expect something, and when i read your posts i find something else!!

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  2. hmm...not sure how to take that...fa will leave it up to you to explain what you mean.

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  3. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  4. Anonymous8:51 pm

    And.....

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  5. Are you sure you are a liberal? Nah, seriously, althought i wouldnt participate in political parties because i dont like to be 'officially' on one side; setting such causes behind, i'd say im a liberal... but the problem with Islam (as well as other fundamentalists) is that they dont respect people's Freedom. Conservatives can live peacefully under liberal government, while liberals are prohibited under conservative government. I mean, if some extreme Islamist doesnt want to see naked girls he can simply lock himself in a four-walled cell, and if he doesnt want to drink liquor, no-one ever forced them to get their asses into the liquor store; But those Islamists, expect everyone to follow their rules, they apply them even on liberals!

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  6. consider, this cartoon. Btw, the cartoon collection on that site is made by some liberal cartoonist, n it contains many eye-opening cartoons...

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  7. well, I posted some relative post

    after Hams' winning lots of so-called liberals spent their time in describing what happened in palestine and most of therir efforts was funny and ridiculous, most of them were obviousley anti-islam just like our "devil's mind" here... I responded to many of them and got silly answers like "look at Iran" or "afghanistan" not realizing that the only democracy among arabs is there in Palestine... I agree totally with you Lulwa about the egyption blogs being the most anti-islamists, one for example is the "Sandmonkey"

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  8. I dunno (and dont care) what happens in politics of the world; i didnt go there, but i was explaining to Lulwa why liberals form anti-religious positions.. Me (and i suppose other liberals as well) dont mind Islamists (and religious people in general), practicing their religions ON THEMSELVES, but we are absolutely against IMPOSING IT ON OTHERS!!!

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  9. Anonymous12:18 am

    Lulwa,

    Thanks for the post. I thought it quite excellent. The reactions to it are revealing of the exact attitude that your post is speaking of. A clearer understanding of democracy, liberalism, and the left is certainly necessary.

    Dana

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  10. heard of a fundementalist liberal?

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  11. the idea is: everything is allowed, and you have the choice to engage in as well as refrain from those things available....

    from babylon dictionary:
    Fundamentalist: one who strictly follows a system of beliefs (especially religious)

    not all systems of beliefs are equal!!!

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  12. I dont think that the comments Devil's mind made are in anyway anti-Islam, I think that his position-which I agree with-is just the people should be left to live in anyway they want, no need to force one way of life on anyone who doesn't want it.
    But-going to the politics of it all-I think that before we can judge if Hamas will oppress the other forces in Palestine we have to allow them the space and time to try and lead.

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  13. Hi Lulwa, et all.
    I feel inclined to note that a person must always be aware that politics is unrelated to faith, and political Islam is not neccessarily the faith of Islam and vice versa. Similarly, Islam is spread over such a vast area and has merged down with the various cultures of different regions- no Islam is the same.
    I was one of those who couldn't help but be disappointed with the election of Hamas, although no one can deny that there is a lot of corruption in Fatah. Yet, disappointment does not mean lack of respect for the choice of the people, because democracy is about accepting the choice of the majority, all the while not losing the right to express lack of consent as the minority.
    Similarly, if people are anti-Islamic (and due to my extremely secular and liberal nature, I may qualify as that), the other side should not go and step on their convictions.

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  14. Anonymous5:46 pm

    Ahem, I am gathering that this post talks about the fabolousness that is moi, and therefore I feel the need to respond. My instincts tell me that it will be wasted given my belief that super lefties lack common sense, but I am fan of lost causes, and who knows, maybe you will be the exception to the rule that proves me wrong.

    Now, first of all, I am not anti-Islamic, I am anti-Jihady. People can be super muslim, or super christian, or worship hindu cows or whatever, and i would have no problems with it. I have problems with those who use their religion as a method of obtaining power or justify opression or even murder. The Islamists-like al jamma3a el islameyah, Hamas and the MB in all of its incanrantions- unfortunately believe in that, and therefore I am automatically against them. However, if they win elections, I am not one to oppose them. I just won't cheer them on so to speak.

    Let's take Hamas for example, shall we? Hamas kept blowing shit up and disrupting shit every single time Fatah moved forward with something. They were the tough guys, the we will destory israel guys. Fine. They won the election, and they still maintain that they want Israel destroyed. Ok, well,that's their right. And It's Israel's right to not give them their money, to lock up their borders and not let them pass through to Israel.

    It's also the US and the EU's right to cut off the AID, because, well, it is aid. It's not a right or an entitlement. I agree, without that aid we have ourselves a real humantarian crisis in ghaza, but those people made their choice. They chose Hamas. Fine. With the choice comes responsibility and reprucussions. You can't have your cake and eat it too, and economic sanctions have always been an acceptable form of international pressure to affect policy. And it's not like they want Hamas to step down or anything; they just wnat them to say "we want peace and we don't want Israel destroyed". Hamas doesn't wnat to do that. Ok, fine Hamas, but can you explain to me then why should we support you again? Why would we want you to succeed again?

    And I am sorry, the pictures of the kids 5 and 6 year old kids that they brought from kindergardens and had them make a protest where they carried a coffin that portrays the danish flag on it was disgusting. The fact that you are mad at me for displaying the pciture and not mad at them for exploiting the 5 year old children this way says something about your moral judgment. But anyway..

    I am opposed to the MB, mainly because there isn't a single terrorist group that made attacks in Egypt in the past 30 years that didn't spring from them. Hell, Al Zawahiri is, or was depending on who tells it, a member of the MB. So yeah, you can imagine why I wouldn't be very happy with them. Not to mention, once they reach power, forget that they leave it. Imagine if the MB wins, and then in the next election the people vote in a secular party, do you think they will just be like "The people have chosen and we will leave the power to those secularists?" Or are they going to be like "This is an islamic country, and we can't allow those secularists to destory that, even if people democratcially voted for them"? Which is closer to reality?

    And while we are at it, can you explain to me how can we argue with them when it comes to implemnatation of shria laws in our countries if they do win? They will just look you and tell you "God said so. You know better than god?" and anything you may say to them will be ineffective. You can't argue with "cause god said so" for the same reason you can't argue with "Islam is the solution", because what are you gonna say? Islam is not the solution? Ha. That would be a sight to see.

    However..

    If the people in my country wnat the MB, then that's fine by me. I am pro demcoracy, even if that democracy brings us to the shit that will be the MB rule. Let them too live with the consequences of their actions. I figure that after 20 years or so they too will be as fed up as the people of Iran are and they will recognize that mixing politics with religion doesn;t work. Sure, in those 20 years I won't be living in my cuntry, cause I am not stupid, but that's also my right.

    Anyway, you can chose to believe differently and support them, the same way the lefties or Iran supported the islamists at the begining of the revolution. I just hope you will fare better than them, cause, as you know, the moment the islamists took power, they killed and arrested all the leftists el kafarah. Good luck with that!

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